Hollywood’s go-to divorce attorney, Laura Wasser talks with BFF Johnnie Raines about the popular, award-winning film starring Scarlett Johansson, Adam Driver, Ray Liotta and Laura Dern, as ’Nora Fanshaw,’ comparing the events in the film to what really happens in Family Law cases. Spoiler alert—they give away the ending! Watch Marriage Story @Netflix and tell us what you think @iTunes.

Episode Transcript

Laura Wasser: Hi, I'm Laura Wasser and welcome to the Divorce Sucks podcast.

Johnny Raines: This is Johnnie Raines. 

Laura Wasser: So Johnnie, they haven't heard us for a while. 

Johnny Raines: What is this? What are we doing here? 

Laura Wasser: Well, I've been at the movies. 

Johnny Raines: I see. 

Laura Wasser: Yes. Seeing all of the Oscar nominated. Well, one in particular. 

Johnny Raines: Yes. 

Laura Wasser: We are having a special divorce sucks episode today wherein we will discuss “Marriage Story”.

Johnny Raines: Dun dun dun. Yes. What a movie it was. Have you seen it right? Yep. Yeah. Well, may I say, first off, congratulations on your Golden Globe.

Laura Wasser: You know, a lot of people have said that to me in the last week or so. And I have to say I'd like to focus a little more on the movie itself as opposed to, you know, whether or not Laura Dern's character, Nora Fanshaw, was loosely based on me. I don't even know that she was.

Johnny Raines: But nevertheless, every aspect of the movie seems like they just pulled it right out of your life from the way her office was set up from down to even like the Manocha, honey.

Laura Wasser: Early on, Noah Baumbach asked if he could use our office for some scenes. I'm pretty sure, although I wasn't there, that the production designer must have come in taking pictures because, yes, Nora's office and the conference room looked very, very similar to those at Wasser, Cooperman and Mandles. Also, her mannerisms and her disingenuousness.

Johnny Raines: Well, that part. No. That was the one of the main themes of her performance, in my opinion. And I think maybe that's one of the reasons why she's getting such acclaim, because that is not how you operate at all. You have an authenticity that she definitely didn't have as an attorney in that movie.

Laura Wasser: Right. I mean, yes, that is how I hope that I am perceived. And I feel like all three of the family law attorneys that are represented in that film are kind of a caricature of the worst kind of family law attorneys, although they obviously all have something important to offer. Most of my colleagues in the family law field have been really kind of like, is that how we are? Alan Alda in particular. I mean, I wrote down some of his amazing lines because he makes so much sense. You know, people say, well, are you the Laura Dern character? No, I'd rather be the Alan Alda character. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, he's rather ineffectual.

Johnny Raines: Right.

Laura Wasser: You know, the Ray Liotta character also makes some really good points, says some really good things, and then kind of ends up being an asshole. Nora Fanshaw, everybody seems to respect her, fear her. You know, they talk about how she's very fair. And yet she is somewhat disingenuous. And in the end, I think that makes the divorcing couple’s situation worse. The scene at the very end where she says to Scarlett Johannson’s character Nicole “I figured out so that even when Charlie is in town, he'll only have 45 versus your 55 custody.” And then Nicole says “well, that's not what I wanted.” and Fanshaw responds  "let it go. You won.”  I don't think most family law attorneys would do that. I don't think you would want a family attorney that would do that. If what your goal and intention is to have a situation where post either settlement or trial, you are able to go on and get along with that person.

Johnny Raines: Isn't that what the law is about? It's all about power. And who has the more weight on one or the other side of the scales?

Laura Wasser: Not in family law. Nobody wins in family law. That's a great line from another film, War of the Roses that Danny DeVito says. But, you know, there's a scene in Ray Liotta's office where he says by the time this is over, you're going to hate both of us. And Adam Driver says, “I can definitely see that.” The reason I think that the movie's so important and there's so many things to talk about that have to do with it. But because of everything that we speak about here on the podcast and on the It's Over Easy Web site, the evolution of dissolution. This is the Kramer vs. Kramer of our generation.

Johnny Raines: And I think it's so important that people see it. So many people have reached out to me and said, oh, my God, I had to stop it halfway through because I was just weeping so much.

Laura Wasser: It's important that people see what it is that divorcing families go through.

Johnny Raines: The emotional part of it is just so gut wrenching. And I think it really, really struck a chord with so many people, whether they their divorce or their parents got divorced. And I think it's really important because as you and I have discussed so often, having these conversations is hugely important.

Laura Wasser: But I also think it's a huge cautionary tale for people who start out with the best of intentions. These guys weren't assholes.

Johnny Raines: Could that really happen?

Laura Wasser: I mean, could somebody come to L.A. on a job and like suddenly now they're living in L.A? Not that quickly. Again, that's some artistic license that Noah Baumbach, the screenwriter, took to make it a simpler story for us to understand. But now we have jurisdictional requirements in the state. In California, you have to be living here for a while before you could actually file a petition and serve it here. So that's not exactly realistic. But again, the idea that somebody could do that, we do have cases where somebody comes and they stay here for the summer and maybe they even enroll the kid in school and then all of a sudden, bam, they file for divorce. So, you know, that feeling of kind of powerlessness, of not really understanding the law and of being a victim and this situation that is happening to you – that really struck a chord with me as well, because I tell people so often, look, your spouse's attorney might be being an asshole, but your spouse is there. He or she is reading the letters, the emails, that scene where they were in the courtroom. 

Johnny Raines: Yes. 

Laura Wasser: And both of them were just going at it against each other. Not a very realistic scene, by the way, because you wouldn't be doing that. You'd be talking to the judge, not your opposing counsel.

Johnny Raines: Could they have just stood up and said, like, I don't feel that way?

Laura Wasser: Well, at one point, one of them could have definitely put their hand on their on their attorney, their advocate, and said, can we take a minute? I'm not liking where this is going or at any point leading up to it, they could have said something like that. You do control the narrative when you are the client, when you are the customer. And so I always think it's interesting when people make their lawyers the bad guys, and that's what we're here for and we get paid for that. But at the same time, the buck does stop with you. 

And so I just think that that part of it, that victimization – it is what it is. Again, perhaps another poetic or artistic license that the screenwriter took. But for those of us watching the movie, I think it does send an important message, which is if you want to be the master of your own destiny. Do it right. Learn the law. Figure out how to apply it to your facts. If you need help from an attorney to get that kind of application – great. But be in control of what's going on. Don't just kind of let it happen to you. And both of them were sitting there the whole time with these kind of worried looks on their faces. And what ends up happening in the film. Spoiler alert is it does end up kind of being OK, but maybe if they had at the beginning gone through the exercise that their mediator, albeit a rather wishy washy mediator, asked them to do, which is read their lists about what they love about each other. They would have embarked on a different path as opposed to her hiring Nora and then eventually him hiring the Ray Liotta character. And when she said, “Why'd you do that? Why'd you get that guy? We almost had it all done.” Adam Driver responds, “I had to get my own asshole.”

Johnny Raines: Yeah, well, it's interesting that it's nominated now. This week they announced the nominations and of course, Laura Dern is nominated for best supporting actress again, which won a Golden Globe. And the critics choice, by the way, they all did fantastic jobs playing their part, which is why I think it's resonating with so many people and why it's so hard for so many people to watch, because it’s just that they're so good.

Laura Wasser: Yeah, but do you think it's because it's also nominated for best picture? Do you think that it has a chance? I mean, What does that say? 

Johnny Raines: I have no idea. I mean, I don't know anything about this kind of stuff.

Laura Wasser: I think it's I think it's important for the field of family law, particularly the field of kind of mediation and self-help and having an online divorce platform that I have. I think it's important people see this movie and I think it's important that everybody knows how difficult it can be going through that process emotionally.

But in terms of all the awards and accolades that the film has received, including up to the nomination for best picture, I think there's a very interesting au courant component to the fact that at this time, in this moment of our existence on the planet, like you said, this is the divorce film of our age. And so there is a shift from Kramer vs. Kramer and War of the Roses. Don't you think? Absolutely.

And that's another. I mean, the the monologue that Laura Dern has where she talks about how there really was no such thing as a good father until 30 years ago. And she goes on this whole rant about, you know, women and being virgins and mothers and whatever and God being an absentee dad.

Johnny Raines: Right.

Laura Wasser: And I think it's interesting. That is not something I ever would have said to anybody in my office and that for certain did not come from me. But the idea that at this point in time, women are kind of really angry about things like that, you know. So many times in the movie, Scarlett johansen's character, Nicole says, I I felt like I was losing myself, I felt so small. Getting your power back by virtue of getting divorced can be a great thing with new chapters and new beginnings. Getting your power back by virtue of making a decision about your child's life and where he or she is going to live and using the process doesn't sit as well with me. 

Johnny Raines: Yeah, I hear you on that. 

Laura Wasser: I wanted just to read some of the things that Alan Alda says because I wish that those things had been given a little bit more seriousness. Again, he was kind of played off as this ineffectual old lawyer, you know – but he really made sense. He says “I graduated into family law to help people survive this painful time ... if we get bogged down in who did this and who said what and I don't want to pay the $2, it'll cost you more money and time and eventual stress and we'll probably end up in the same place anyway.”

Now, that sounds like something people in my business make up. But I focus on thinking of you and her as people. This can be a really ugly process, but I also believe it doesn't have to be terrible. And again, Adam Driver says at one point, “this doesn't make sense” And Alan Alda says “you're right, you're doing this because you love your kid. And in doing so, you're spending so much money that you're draining it from your kid's education account.” 

Johnny Raines: Right. 

Laura Wasser: At one point, he tells Charlie to be a better husband in divorce than he was in marriage.

Johnny Raines: I mean, a lot of those words do sound like stuff that you've said or that other family law attorneys that are wise and good at problem solving. Are there any others that are as wise as you? 

Laura Wasser: I'm like the Yoda.

Johnny Raines: OK.

Laura Wasser: Eventually this will all be over. And whatever, whether we win or lose, it will be the two of you, you and him and the future together.

Well, I mean, that's the kind of stuff we say. And that kind of got brushed aside. Which, again, I would like to focus on some of that, because those are the important messages of this movie. And maybe if the more powerful family law attorneys in the movie would have actually gone in that direction, again, they got to the same place they were going to get to. Charlie agreed that they could stay in Los Angeles. They shared the 50/50 custody when he was here. It didn't have to be so acrimonious. And nobody really ever talked about this. But it must have cost a shitload of money. Absolutely.

Johnny Raines: And that's that's part of what I think was also very poignant about the movie and the experience.

It personalized the experience to the point where you really felt what the kid was feeling, what the parents were feeling.

Laura Wasser: Did you feel what the kid was feeling? I felt what the parents were feeling. I never felt what the kid was feeling. I missed completely where he was in all of this, frankly. And I've read a few things about that said it's not the filmmakers job to make us know every single thing. He was a cute little kid. He may have been just young enough not to totally get it. There was the really interesting and disturbing part where that family law, the child custody evaluator, comes in, sits in the house. I'm sure all the child custody evaluators out there really love that, too. She was portrayed as a weirdo. But again, it's such a weird situation of somebody kind of observing you at a home visit, which they do often in family law cases where custody is at issue. I mean, all of these things. But you didn't really, I don't think, get the kid’s perspective.

Johnny Raines: Well, here's what I think about that. It wasn't very obvious he wasn't acting out in obvious ways, but it was very subtle the way that he gravitated toward the Scarlett Johansson character. In some ways. And then I really was watching that relationship and I thought that it was well-played.

I thought the scenes where he was with his dad, the Halloween thing. Oh, my God. 

Laura Wasser: When they did the trick or treating on their own and they went to the pink dot, I mean, that I've watched that with so many dads, mostly dads. Sometimes I really struggle with that transition period. I mean, I really think that the Halloween the following year is going to be a better year no matter what. And it was, it was.

That transition is what people are so uncomfortable with and why it's so important seeing this movie and feeling that – I've either felt this discomfort or it happened to me. I remember how frustrated I was or oh, I remember this discomfort from when I saw that movie in 2019, 2020. And I now can get through this a little bit better because I get that frame of reference.

The production crew really did their research and they spoke with a few other family law attorneys. They spoke with a co-parenting counselor and really got the information. And they also spoke publicly about the fact that those of them who had been through divorces might use some of their own experiences going through this and add to them. None of it was autobiographical. Some of it had some, you know, mirroring of the situation, but not exactly. And I think that's important. And I think Baumbach has said that he's done that in a lot of his work. Squid and the Whale is my favorite movies ever. And that really is about the child's perspective of parents getting divorced. So this is kind of his, I'd say, coming of age movie regarding that issue.

And I really think he did a good job of saying this is a love story. 

Johnny Raines: Right. 

Laura Wasser: This isn't a story about failure. This is a story about hope.

Johnny Raines: Well, at the end, the very end of the movie, before the special thanks to Laura Wasser and other people, they left it open. I mean, I'm a hopeful romantic. And I was like, oh, my God, are they going to get back together? Did you see? 

Laura Wasser: I never thought they were getting back together. 

Johnny Raines: Well, hopefully, yeah. Let's “you never know”.

Laura Wasser: I think that they were able to come back together and be a family, which I thought was really important. Get back together in some way where they have mutual respect for one another. 

Johnny Raines: Right.

Laura Wasser: I loved Julie Hagerty and Mary. 

Johnny Raines: Oh, they were so good. 

Laura Wasser: And Julie Hagerty. I represented Julie HAGERTY in her divorce years ago.

Johnny Raines: I was a baby boy around the time she was in Airplane. 

Laura Wasser: No. We were too young. 

After that post Airplane and even post Lost in America. Because I remember us talking about it the next day. But she's amazing and she's a lovely person. And their performance in the movie, the whole scene with the pie and the serving, the papers, they're so good and the singing.

Johnny Raines: I mean, they were singing. Who knew Adam Driver could sing? 

Laura Wasser: I did.

Johnny Raines: It was like a La La Land 2020.

Laura Wasser: I guess so.

Anyway, those are my thoughts about that marriage story. If you haven't seen it. Get out there and see it. Enjoy. It's not the most enjoyable film, but it certainly is worth seeing and digesting and marinating 'cause it's all about the discussion that we're trying to make happen here on the divorce sex podcast and on our it's over easy online divorce platform and community.

Johnny Raines: So before we go, let me say happy divorce day is past, but happy divorce month. You were just in New York and how was it?

Laura Wasser: I was in New York. I was on the Today Show. I did a lot of press because evidently people want to hear about divorce month in January. So one of the things that I spoke about a lot was the podcast and how All’s Fair has taken a little bit of a break because we are refueling and rebranding. And on February 11th, we will launch with I Heart Radio, our new podcast, and I'm really looking forward to it. So stay on this feed. Keep listening. Listen to some of the oldies but goodies that you liked and know that just in time for Valentine's Day. Once the worst month is over, we will be launching our new podcast with a very special and exciting guest.

Check it out, February 11th and keep your ears and eyes tuned to this space, because tween now in February 11th will be dropping little tidbits along the way. Oh, Joy.